Podcasts›Exoskeletons and Wearable Robotics›22 years of Wearable Robotics with Dr. Tom Sugar Part 2Like💬 Be the first to comment →AudioSeptember 21, 202622 years of Wearable Robotics with Dr. Tom Sugar Part 2From Exoskeletons and Wearable Robotics, hosted by Bobby Marinov and Tom SugarPart two with Tom Sugar, from running assistance and load carriage to occupational exoskeletons and rehabilitation projects.Play episodeSaveOpen the audio file TranscriptTranscript from the show's feedSearch the transcript0:00Hi everyone to the Skeletons and Variable Robotics podcast episode 33, part two walking with Springs 22 Years of Wearable Robotics with doctor Tom Sugar. So in the previous episode, if you haven't caught it, I highly suggest that you take a look at it. We started going through Tom's early career. What led him to web about, about. And even after doing this podcast now together for two years, I can honestly, without hesitation, say that every four out of five sentences was new information for me.0:43I think I could just misunderstood or underestimated just how much work has come out. What is the name of app again? Tom. Human Machine Integration lab. We started it in 1999, and we thought about how to integrate robotics with humans way back when and and right now, off the top of my head, I can't even list everything that we talked about. Last time there was trying to compare how people interact with objects and then compare that to robotics doing, balancing, doing multi-directional treadmills, compliant robotics that you can push back on.1:30It's just that that was that's a doozy of an episode. And we we thought about exoskeletons for the upper body with Rupert and we thought about exoskeletons at the ankle. We had ortho sees and then prosthetic systems, and then we started getting into even boat and cable spring based systems for the hip and ankle combined. So it was fun. It was interesting. And that was what we ended on the.2:00I believe JTAR Warrior web. Project that we started earlier on. Yeah, yeah. That somehow I just I've always known that Spring Active you were involved, but I was just a lot more familiar with the systems and prototypes that came out of Ekso Bionics and Seismic and SRI, which is like obviously next to me, that that's within a one hour drive of me, but also the East Coast systems rather than your work.2:37So I highly encourage everyone. If you haven't checked out the previous part one of this episode to go take a look. We never thought that it will be able to go through this in a single recording session. So now let's let's get into part two. Before we start, did you want to thank our your sponsors? Sure. Before we start, since yesterday we've had no new sponsors, but we still want to take the opportunity to thank our corporate level sponsors, the Crimson Dynamics Robot Golf.3:16Let me share my screen. Thank you for the support. Crimson Dynamics, RoboGolf Pro, Humotech, Logosol, SkelX, HeroWear, Digity and and then VIP level sponsors as well. We always like to mention Hapo, Volker Bartenbach, Rita Vasquez Torres George Georgiev, Cody Jax, Carl Zelik, Diego Arbea, Super Essence.3:46Kevin Shadle, Stefano Toxiri, George Woodland and Sebastian Stassin Yeah. In general. These are the VIPs. These are the regulars. And these are the corporate. Okay, maybe I should actually write that in next time, but I'm glad that last episode we got that I was using an outdated image on the website. I could make the image, and somehow it was not updated, so Harper was not there. Excellent. Well, thanks for reading through the sponsor list, Tom, and obviously special thanks to all of our Patreon sponsors.4:25We we really appreciate the support without question. So where do we want to start? Well, we ended on the JTAR, and can you remind us what stood for just for Joint Torque Augmentation Robot. And so we used motors Bowden cables and springs. And we could assist at the hip and at the ankle. And in combined that that was really interesting. Yeah.4:55And that was super interesting. And then that was 2012 roughly. So. Well what else did he do 2012. I see. Four minute mile Jet Pack, POGO Suit Sure. So let me maybe I'll share my screen a little bit and just kind of I made a list of a bunch of videos. So if we look at jetpack. So my student wanted to build a system. That could make it run faster. And so then here's his friend running behind.5:28But both of those were professional type runners. So a lot of questions were asked on why was the person wearing a helmet and earplugs and things like that? Well, so for Institutional Review Board, we needed to have lots of of safety equipment while wearing it. Did we ever get someone to run a four minute mile? No, because we were trying to get some sports runners to run. But but people the athletes were worried that if that, you know, if they fell over or got hurt, they would lose their scholarship.6:05So we never got, you know, super duper athletes. But what we did do is you could take about a minute off your mile. So if you're a six minute miler, you could definitely run a five minute mile. The device. Well, that sounds interesting. Yeah. The the device used a ton of electricity. It was like a five amp, 24 volt battery. And we would use the battery up within, you know, 4 to 6 minutes.6:36It literally was like a hundred amp, 24 volt. I mean, it was it was a lot of electricity; we got. Ducted fans from China that were titanium and really lightweight. So my student built a device and we had a lot of fun building the jetpack and we got tons of hits. The video that got, you know, millions of hits was this one on Vimeo.7:06And again, he had a helmet. He had earplugs. And he could he could take a six minute mile down, down to. Around five minute mile. And then so this is a everybody was always wanting to fly. And whenever people hear the term jet pack that's what they really think about. So what we've done is we've reduced the amount of force. We're not able to fly with our jetpack, but we have instantaneous thrust, and we can pretty much trigger it to allow for faster movements, agile motions and so forth.7:40With the project being called 4MM for Four Minute Mile. Our overall goal is really to get any soldier or any test subject at the time, to be able to run a four minute mile that wasn't already capable of doing so well. I started doing this research kind of by accident. The team at the time was just at the infancy of this project, so they initially came to me because I owned a welding business and was also student here at the university. And so we were developing robots that could assist amputees. And DARPA came back to us and asked us, could you develop robots that could assist able bodied people and make them be able to run faster or do things that they couldn't do before?8:21And from there, things just kind of clicked because I was really interested in the robotic process. So the fact that I could work on designing something and then turn around and dwelled up a prototype the next day or even same day, really reduced our overall time as a lab. On getting ideas from concept to prototypes, but we certainly had doubts about could you make someone run faster? And in fact, Jason and I had tried to use a towing force with a golf cart, see if you could pull somewhat and allow them to run fast.8:52But so I personally ran around a track and then deciding that yes, with the correct bowling force could get someone to run a four minute mile. But the problem is, how do I apply those forces? Do I apply the forces on the trunk? Or do I to design an Exoskeleton that applies forces that. But the more that we kind of researched into it and then found out potential applications, we found that in a warfare type arena, this could be potentially the difference between life and death. If you think of, you know, a Navy Seal or an Army soldier that has to get in somewhere quick and do whatever they got to do, but maybe get out of there just as quickly so these devices can really help soldiers to not only accomplish their goals and succeed in their missions, but potentially save human lives as well.9:38We're incredibly engineered as is, and augmenting our abilities really becomes a difficult, challenging research project that you don't know what the answer is going to be over trials over a 200 meter distance. We definitely saw a decrease in time and a decrease in what they call metabolic cost, the amount of energy required for a person to run at high speeds, and you ran with the jetpack three seconds faster, but you're also carrying an extra 11.2.10:08I really wouldn't have nearly as much accomplishment without faculty and people here like Doctor Sugar that I worked with. And if I can continue to work in this field, if I can continue to make wearable exoskeletons and robotic devices that assist people, then I'm feeling like I'm able to accomplish just about anything. The jetpack I've gotten to see in person. I think he opened one of the weatherboard robotics conferences, which you're running with the jetpack through the entire main hall.10:42I did just yeah, yeah, it was fun. It was fun. So 2012 seems like it was a busy year for you. Yes. So you said some other ones we wanted to do wall climbing. Right. Well, climbing. I think we mentioned the, the previous episode that if I'm not mistaken, that's the one that you, you said you can strap on literally, quite literally like Mission Impossible climb walls and ended up being used in a Best Buy commercial.11:14Yes, Yeah, what is the POGO Suit? So the pogo suit was we we're always using these phase oscillators. And so we were wanting to understand the oscillation of your center of gravity. So could we oscillate something up and down and make it easier to walk or easier to hike with a heavy backpack? Or just so you know, we did try this.11:45We took this, we took the signal and swapped the wires and then the oscillated in the exact wrong time and just pushed you into the ground. So every time you wanted to go up, it would push you into the ground. So imagine building a device that oscillates a backpack and you won't show the whole thing, but oscillates the backpack up and down. Hi, my name is Scott Segal. I'm a reporter with the issue now, and I am out here at the trailhead in Superstition Mountains of Arizona to field tests.12:19Professor Thomas Sugar’s pogo pack. It's a prototype backpack, and it is supposed to counteract the weight you're carrying, so it helps you carry a heavier load. Anyway, I'm excited to be trying out something completely new that no one's ever tried before. Been a backpacker for 30 years. Technology hasn't changed a lot, so let's see what we find out. So that was a really good image there of the technology. So really interesting how it works. I mean from a backpackers point of view you're going up something steep.12:52And there's always that moment when you lift your foot and you've got to kind of jump with your whole core and get your weight, get that wig you're carrying back up the step. And it's a real fiber area. When you're wearing the pack, you come to that point making that step and it's like a hand comes and lifts the back off your back just for the space of that stout. It's it's great. So we'll stop there. We're questions Bobby. They're just so for those who can't see the video or it it moved really quickly.13:24It looks like this is a professional grade backpack that has a rail on the back. And then on the rail you have what looked like a linear elastic actuator. So you can slide the whole load of the backpack up and down on it. Correct. And what we did was we had a, a sensor measuring at your at your belt. We had a sensor measuring your as your body oscillated up and down it, it would oscillate in the correct rhythm to help you.14:03And as I said, you can imagine one way is when you're walking with just a regular backpack, it's slamming against your shoulders and pushing you down. In another way. It's trying to help you and lift you up so that that's and you know, people can watch the and there's a nice view. I think at the end he gets to a little. He gets to that trail. That could be great. It's lost sight of it really gives you a boost. When we take it a step. Step.14:33It lifts that pack bag for just a split second. The downside of it is it kind of when you're like, I am now kind of go a little wonky and put it's a prototype. It's the only one of its kind. Thanks for coming along with us. And we are going to head down the slope, find water and make camp. So I'm nicely done. And again, I seen things like that. I've heard of things like that. I had no idea that somehow I had no idea that you have worked on this yourself. Okay, so then what is the air legs?15:06So the air legs was with. Again Jason Kerestes; We wanted to work on devices that would assist at the hips and maybe also at the ankles as well. So hip ankle device and we would use air because I have to say air is really naturally compliant and it feels really good. And I loved my pneumatic exoskeletons. The disadvantage is how do you carry the air source?15:37Now I'll show you what we did. We carry the air source within 800 psi tank. But let me let me show a couple of videos there and then we'll talk through it. So I'll share my screen. So imagine again this idea that we're going to use phase controllers. So it's in rhythm with you. So we're going to turn valves on and off on and off on and off in rhythm with your hips and rhythm with your stepping.16:07So I'll show like this video where we had abnormal stepping. Where let's see if it'll play. I take small steps. Big steps. And so it's like a little. And so it's pulling springs at my ankle. And it's also assisting the hips. So so in a nutshell this is a follow it hip exoskeleton. But also but it's I have I have one actuator that's pushing and pulling on my hip.16:41And I have another little small actuator that's pulling on those yellow bungee cords and giving me a really nice powered planter, flexion or pushing, having the foot push off. So like those literally four valves. So one valve for the left hip, one valve for the right hip, one valve for the left ankle, one valve for the right right ankle. And then it seems like you're using different motion strategies.17:11Like on the hip, it almost looks like what we would consider now a consumer hip exoskeleton or really any hip exoskeleton that's powered. But then on the back you're almost imitating this, this elasticity and spongy ness of the muscles. Yeah. On the pads I can push out. It was like, powered calf muscles or powering the, the it's like a soleus muscle. Yeah.17:43And it seems like it's a one off force versus on the hips. It's a it's more of a continuous. Yeah. The hips was kind of push pull push pull. And and at the ankle it was pull up pull up pull up at the right time. Fascinating. Because to this day you don't really see mixed mixed mode exoskeletons. Right. Let me let me do one video here. Like I'll show you like this pneumatic hopper.18:14This is kind of how we knew our phase angles worked well. So stop there for second. You can imagine that I need to fire an air cylinder and get the hop right, but it's again, obviously springs, so I want to put enough power in there to get a limit cycle. And I'm just hop, hop, hop, hop. But you'll see, I'll even break the limit cycle with my hand and and it'll automatically get into a new faster limit cycle. You.18:45Oh, wow. Okay. It's hard to believe that this is work from 15 years ago. Yes, that was the. So that was this phase. So that's how counter we knew we were like we wanted to just the pump pump pump pump energy. Yeah. Into the person. So this would be so first of all this is the first time that I'm I'm seeing in isolation what what a linear spring actuator even looks like.19:16And that's so interesting that it is the behavior so effortlessly. So this is not like what we would consider an AI controller, where it makes a decision based on inputs. It's how how is the phase oscillation controller. How was that? So it is making it is making decisions based on an input. I'm measuring the velocity and the position of the linear of the linear hopper.19:52And then I'm firing the actuator based on the combination of that knowledge. So I look at I look at velocity and I divide by position. And I get a and I can get a phase angle. And then I'm firing based on that phase angle. And you mentioned it maybe a site that you're always looking at gravity and the relative placement. Right. Because this is a this is a hopper that is basically mass times acceleration plus a spring when it hits the ground plus gravity.20:32That's always pointing down because I'm in the gravity well. And so that I'm and what I and then I have friction in that hopper the damping. And I got to add energy at the right time to, to get rid of the to to supplement the loss of the friction energy. And then I get myself into a limit cycle. Boom boom boom boom boom. Really fascinating okay. And so now so this this is all 2012 2014.21:03So let me just show two last things. No, no. Again where you know you can we did this overground and I wanted to. Demonstrate how easy it is. You air lakes prototype the soft exoskeleton. Soldiers run faster way strapped. Best strap and attack like sports. Back the legs. That ready to use the device. Hitting out of the device is just as easy. So you can hear.21:33Click, click click click. And then you go right into running. And then I think of remember right I did stairs. So up up. So we did running. We did stairs, inclines and declines. And then at one last video I'm not sure the whole thing, but we did. My student did get it on Good Morning America with the air legs device feature technology for our troops. The military's DARPA lab creates stunning inventions.22:06They could help. Let's just. I'll just go quickly. Whoops. And you're just about good to go. Let's try running. Oh, I can feel it. With the help of air, legs, even skinny legs like these can feel like cylinders of power. It's one. So we'll stop. We'll stop there. But we we again, you can see that the human being lives in this gravity well. And so you want to just pump energy to boom, boom boom at the right time. And I was you.22:38We did it for walking running stairs and climbs declines and and you could also see you know, we did soft systems. We had air with bungee cords. So you can see it again this whole idea of spring based system. Fascinating. Okay. So I did we skip anything because I feel like there's something missing the when did you work on the system? That was the gravity compensating that goes all the way to the ground.23:10So that was the ROLLE system and that we were doing that at Spring Active, and we were trying to carry heavy backpacks. And I don't remember exactly when we worked on that one. So, we had a ROLLE system because it's said 14 years ago. So that would have been about 2012. Two so you're saying full screen we can pull into full screen. So imagine a system that helps you carry your a backpack.23:44What was unique about it was we purposely decided we would not, follow the knee and our knee joint would be different. We also had a linear actuator pushing against a spring system again, and then this went, down to your ankles for the people that can't see it. We liked it to almost like a wheelbarrow attached to your legs.24:15Right. So imagine you're pushing a force against the ground, and the load path goes up through a structure that then holds up the backpack. And it was very lightweight. And if I remember right, the person was was had like 100 pounds on. And so again, it was it was designed to offset soldiers load. And these were just some early prototypes.24:46So unloaded the person unloaded the person is standing straight up loaded with, you know, 100 pounds. You're just bent over and he can't even talk really, because it's just so heavy. And then Exo assisted. He's standing more, you know, more vertical. And he can, you know, talk. So we were doing walking systems.25:16We were carrying a huge amounts of of weight. And then we were walking over for people that can't see this. We were walking in the desert in Arizona over rocky terrain. And you have to be in rhythm with the user so that it allows you to take a nice step forward, step over the rocks. We had it so that you could do, you know, lots of different ranges of motion and you could step up and down.25:50But here I was. We were proud of he had over 100 pounds. And because we had springs inside this, he could jump up and down with the pack pack. And there was no way he could do that without an exoskeleton. So he's loading the springs and he's jumping up and then. And then the structure absorbs the backpack. And to be clear, it's not that the device weight hundreds of hundred and more pounds.26:21You are adding weights to simulate. Oh, he if I go backwards, we had, literally I you know. Iron weights right. There is a giant piece of, of steel and then we put weights inside the backpack. Oh fascinating. Because I've seen a lot of these. Obviously interest continues right now. There's still ongoing NATO projects with getting gravity compensation exoskeletons.26:51We we saw even a centaur I think, from China, where it's a humanoid torso that connects to the hips and just shadows you, movement behind you. So it's like a level half humanoid, and then you can plop any sort of weight on top of it. Fascinating that you did work on that. And then did you get any validation measurements, like what was the range of the system, I ask?27:26It was it was a long time ago. What we did do is what everyone was trying to do at the time was to be able to show reduced metabolic cost. And so for air legs, we were getting around 10% metabolic reduction while running. And then I don't remember the metabolic reduction for ROLLE but it was it allowed people to carry, you know, large heavy weights. And I know, there's basically some NATO work in Europe trying to do some similar work in this area.28:00And there's many companies that continue to do to this work of all. Most of it is. Exoskeletons that follow the body more closely. Anthropomorphic. All right. That's the way that you did. Right? That was a not an anthropomorphic robot. And there was a company out of France. Yeah, RB3D. They are waiting on and they actually try to remember the name conversion had a very similar device. So the two there's the goal.28:30Either way, it could be the the pointing forward or pointing back. But that was that was some time ago. Yeah. Nice. Okay. Wow. We, you were active. Active that time period, 2012 to 2014. What what did you work on next? I see the HeSA. Okay, so HeSA was a hip exoskeleton. We were trying to take some of the best things we knew about. And we wanted to make a motorized hip exoskeleton that could be used for the military.29:08And we also thought about at the time two, at the end we were thinking about occupational exos as well. So let me let me look at some videos and then that'll help me with remembering. So HeSA we were building an exoskeleton, so let me just play this one first where we were going to use motors. So we were going to use, a motorized hip system because, you know, we were getting away from the pneumatic because people were saying pneumatics were great.29:43But how do you carry that air source? And for motors, it's really nice because you can have a bad, you know, really high end batteries and high end motors and build something. So we wanted to build a device that could do hip extension inflections, so would go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, within rhythm with you. And you could go automatically from, you know, walking to running, just like we were kind of doing some of the air legs. We could go up and downstairs. But something unique about this one was you could go past a certain amount of movement, and then it would disengage from the motor and be completely free.30:24And then you could take and then you could take large steps. So here I'll show you that. So so here's small steps. Well they take small steps. And then you can go right into running right from walking into running. And then here you can do stairs, but you can completely disengage the system. If you needed your your leg to go up really high. And that gave us the idea there to was we wanted to be able to have a lot of of, of freedom.30:57Okay. And so then another one was for industrial settings. We said, well, can you use that similar device in industrial settings? So you could use it and it would help you go upstairs so you can imagine push, push, push, push push with the device. It was a very, very, very lightweight system at the time.31:29I have to go back and try to find some data to show you if you're interested, but it was an extremely lightweight device. We had just a standard drill battery because we wanted it to be safe and and you could kneel down, come back up, you know, don't like jogging upstairs and things like that. So let's stop there. Oh, no, I'll keep going here. So again you it would disengage and you could just sit down inside of a piece of machinery and, and there, you know, drive.32:07Right. So and here's someone going up a stairs as well. So HeSA the interesting thing. There was it was a motor spring system of the lever arm that was extremely lightweight. We could do I think if I remember right up to about 30 Newton meters per side. And again, we were using our, our control systems that we had learned about. Questions. No, this is, this is great. And I think that we will return back to that design in a later project of yours with the APEx Right.32:44But but the idea was we had a system. Actually, I have one, I think. We had a system that could easily clip on to the IOTV vest of a user. It had a 300 to 1 gearbox ratio, so I'd have to get the exact numbers for you. But because we did some really unique designs, even though it was a 300 to 1 gearbox ratio was back drivable. We always wanted things that were back drivable, so you never felt like you're locked into the systems.33:16And what was an IOTV vest again? The IOTV vest was, oh, it was the vest that the Army wears for The plate carrier plates, you know, you think okay, of the time It stood for an improved outer tactical vest. Got it. And the idea that the IoT vest was introduced in 2007. And the idea was it was a plate carrier.33:49Cool. Okay, so then somehow from doing all this, like, basically nonstop hardware research, you decided to start the or be part of starting the Wearable Robotics how how did that jump happen? So, in 2015 ish. And I think that's exactly when you and I met to bob around that. Right. Does that sound right? Yeah. So 2015 ish. My my brother Phil.34:21Joe Hit, Joe Hit’s partner Bruce and then, you know, and others and you were helping to we said we wanted to make exoskeletons. Get the publicity out again. I think it was this idea going get exoskeletons from academia into commercialization. And I let you do a shout out. I went to WeRob I think, the year before, and I was with Professor Jose Pons, and he's obviously one of the, beginning leaders of this entire industry and research.35:03And he was focusing a lot on medical systems and neuroscience and systems for he had the he had the conference, the neuro rehabilitation. And I'm saying it exactly right. But the neuro rehabilitation conference. And so when I came back from that conference to I was talking to Joe hit and Joe hit was leaving DARPA at the time, coming back to Arizona. And I said, I think we should focus on military and industrial exoskeleton.35:34So we wanted to host a conference in the US. And I think our first conference was what, Bobby, do you think 2016 ish, like 2016 was the first conference. And and this helped us out and we we had a lot of people from industry and. You know, military and we were discussing, you know, the state of the art for medical too. So it was we hadn't medical tissue. Right. And I said that was the way. So Arun from Shirley Ryan Ability Lab was running the medical track and I was running the industry track.36:14And then Joe was leading the the group. And you were honestly helping to lead the, the what would I sorry, Bobby. The marketing, you know, you were helping out with the marketing things and we had a conference group ACG was really helping us to. a little bit of trivia here I this is how Doctor Sugar and I connected. I was constantly searching for new names for website names and how to call this technology, because bio mechatronics was really a popular term popularized by MIT at the time.36:53But then it went really heavily into biomimetic, like, for example, how to make a submarine swim like a fish, where the hull of the submarine goes left to right and snakes through the water so it went in a different direction. So obviously wearable robotics, powered exoskeletons. They were all kinds of terms being thrown out at the time without there being a clear winner. Sometimes even the same company would use different terms every 1 or 2 years in their own patent portfolio.37:29And that is literally how I stumbled on the Wearable Robotics Association. I was doing domain search, domain searches, and I'm like, there's a website here. And I messaged and I make I who are you guys? So I didn't help with the initial conference in terms of like marketing or getting people to attend, but I was. Covering what had happened and been like, hey, this event happened and I will publish a recap of all the days that that is still up on both the Wearable Robotics website and the Exoskeleton Report.38:12And because now here I was directly involved in attending the events. This was the first time that physically, the community had come together, because you have to think about it how it was ten years ago. people were hesitant to really show what they're working on because the patent portfolio really can protect you only so much. A lot of this is human movement, human biomechanics, how to build systems around it, not entirely simple or easy to to explain how that is your research.38:49It's it's not like, oh, I built a new transistor or I made a flat screen TV, and many of the groups were working in silos without even realizing that there's other labs, universities and businesses working on this at the same time. So it was truly the first one was a huge event in kind of like a resort style hotel with people coming together for the first time and be like, wait, I'm working on this, but I'm working on this.39:21And right from the get go, it really established the how, how you would run the for the next ten years, the conference series where you had the medical track, you had the industrial occupational track you from the get go, you had the innovation challenge. And take take a look at our episode on the innovation Challenge and what happened to so many of the participants and the winners. That was such a melting pot of ideas.39:53And like, we've worked on this, we've worked on that. Which reminds me the the first innovation challenge, I think there was an ASU project, which was like a wearable air conditioner system of sorts. Cooling suit. Yeah. So that's one we should talk about. Golfer it. Right. Well, do you want to see more on that? No, I was going to just say I think if I'm right, you know, Laevo was one of the first groups there with the, you know, innovation challenge if we go back and look.40:27But hey, we have an episode on that; Laevo was the was the company that was the first to be like, hey, we brought the actual device. This is what we're working on. This is how we've been visioning it. This is what we're going to start selling. And they kind of would they they're the ones that broke the ice and let it make him feel everyone else more comfortable. Yes. All right. So let me share screens to then cooling suit.40:57So we wanted to build a device that would cool you off. And I won't show the whole thing because it's got a lot of loud music, to be honest with you, but I'll put it on mute. Yeah. So we were building a device again. It was an undergraduate project. It's you. And this is our colleague successfully miniaturized a evaporative compression system.41:28All right, here in condenser, inside evaporator, which is a which is going container of water that then circulates that cold water through the shirt and where. So to get the water through the shirt, I simply command you guys down here, oh, pop right in. And then the refrigeration, the cold refrigerated water will go on through the shirt with the little, little pocket down below. Here below beer is our compressor, which is compressing our refrigerant and sending it to a condenser that then liquefies it as droplets small to the going into our evaporator where the phase change.42:07And that's what makes the water container really old. So I think the important things here were again, we were, you know, early on just thinking about how can you cool people. And this is a big issue obviously in Arizona. And also it was a big issue. We're we're talking to the Air Force about this, where imagine if you're moving equipment and you're an aerial porter, which we'll talk about later on, and you're moving equipment in, you know, 120 Fahrenheit.42:41And you want devices like that. So as a shout out, There is some research. Not my research, but there is a mannequin. So at ASU mannequin with for cooling. And he is one of the first mannequins that can, that can actually move and walk. So here. So meet ANDI the world's first outdoor sweating, breathing and walking mannequin.43:11And so he has done some work with exoskeletons. But you can imagine that this type of research is quite important when you're in hot dry environments. Yeah. Well said. And I think that as temperatures continue to increase, this is going to become more and more of a topic. And I also think it's an opportunity for the exoskeleton industry where you already have controllers, motor sensors, a frame attachment points to start also including personal cooling devices, whether they are with compressors or Peltier devices or fans.43:55And it's nice to show that work like this existed already for some time. This is not like, oh, we just thought of this like yesterday, but. What happened next then after that. So then would you say that the APEx was the next. Yeah. Let me talk about apex. So yeah. So so after the HeSA device the hip. Exoskeleton, we were then asked could we take everything we learned and build a device that could help you?44:32At the hips also could help you push. So APEx was an aerial porter exoskeleton. And so that's how we kind of came up with that name at the time. I'll share my screen. And so but you said that one of the requirements was that it could not use Bowden cables. It needed to be more of a solid structure. Yeah. So we wanted the Army in people at the time said they didn't like the Bowden cables because they thought it was a snag hazard, and they really wanted something that, that could just be a contained unit.45:13They also talked about, again, the idea which we did do where, you know, if one side broke, you could throw it away, pop on a new side. It was a very modular system. So if we look at APEX, I'll show a video. So. I'll stop here for a second. We had to have a hip structure that could allow motors to go back and forth, back and forth, but also allow motors to go in the same direction for pushing or for squat lifting and things like that.45:50So we built first off, we had a structure that went up the back. But then if you're in we were in California in 2020 and it was extremely hot and they didn't want to get hot and sweating. So we wanted a structure that would just be on the sides. And then again, we wanted a a structure that could push him, pull at the hips. And we wanted a structure that actually this one, you could completely disengage and then be able to just walk freely and then then clutch again and then and then to be able to add assistive power device has really been used, really been tested.46:39We actually got it out of the lab and worked on it at an Air Force base. So I'll show some other videos where it's really pushing hard demonstration. See when it worked. So the first time I tried it on was at ASU. When I put it on, I realized that there was more potential there than I thought there was. Originally, their initial design in the suit was was very close. It was no cargo planes, constantly C17 c5 Christi tunes and 747 civilian aircraft. We kicked it off eight weeks ago. We talked to airmen, paid his prototype. We can get all the feedback we can get.47:09We need you to have honest feedback with us. Tell us how it is. That way we can make it better. So we're not giving airmen something that they're not going to use. The fundamental purpose of the project was to work on worker wellness and try to make pushing and lifting a safe, because these people are pushing large objects under airplanes, they're typically making large pallets. And then four people will push about a 10,000 pound pallet onto the air. The heaviest lift way is describing what the tests are.47:42We're trying to get them actually out on the plains, see what it's like in the real world, how they react, because we don't want to give them something that's not going to help them anyway. It took a couple of weeks for people to really understand that, you know, we've got people on the plane, we need a pair. One person not wearing a robot, one person wearing the robot so we can have a direct task comparison. But by far this experience was the most positive from top to bottom. They were basically requesting to use the device when they had heavy loads, heavy operations coming up because they really did feel benefit.48:16Also, I think the way it sits them, there's a comfort level there and a secure mint level that they gained. And then from the added talk that these actuators provide during those lifting and pushing tasks like stability, maximum for stability and just your overall lifting technique. You mean like the center of gravity. So a lot of times you just ready for that. You're not usually it's not focused on center gravity trying to get the mission done. So this is helping you to focus on that point. Because once it's it's it's on you fitted you it's extremely comfortable.48:47You can wear it all day and it's no problem the way they've designed the, the the systems to engage and disengage when you needed to. It makes it all that more impressive. The awesome thing was that the people who had already warned the exoskeleton were giving pointers to the the individuals who had not, so they had developed their own institutional knowledge of how to use the robot and caught on so much faster, seeing their reactions as they wear it and them kind of pointing each other out for how to do stuff and just absolute enthusiasm for everything.49:17I can't think of really any individuals that were having a bad time with. It was actually people focused on that part of a job, rather than just the hard work progress on the Labor Party. They understand that the hazards of the job and they're trying to lower them, passes and decrease them. They've given us a lot of great feedback, and she's been very receptive to that feedback, and I think legitimately wants what's best for them, for the Air Force. And that's why the working so hard and we're working so well together. The relationship has been fantastic.49:48It allows us to create something that we could actually use. In my viewpoint, the eight week period went outstanding. We had many aerial porters where the device tell us how, they like to tell us how they liked it, feel of the device and also assisted them. We also used it in real world tasks. So I'll stop. There are the things I want to share. Like, you know, you we did have some videos, you know, working with the Air Force where you really are. People are asking us, you know, really are pushing hard. So.50:21Push, push, push, push. Let's see, we had some other videos just just trying to remember what videos I had, giving superhuman strength to protect them on the job. A group of researchers in the Valley is betting on their wearable robotics to prevent workplace injuries. Cameron Polom shows us how... Here inside Wear Tech Labs Thursday, getting an up close look at how researchers would GO X and ASU have their sights and tech set on preventing workplace injuries.50:52Battery bits over here, the wiring comes around the back features of a lightweight system, providing a taste of superhuman strength thanks to wearable robotics, with the hope of taking human capability to a new level. Within our own community. We've got agricultural workers, mining workers, warehouse workers with a lot of injuries. Joe Hitt is part of the team who tested the device on Air Force quarters. Workers tasked with loading thousands of pounds of cargo on C-17s.51:22The number one entry is back strength, and so we knew that that's where we wanted to focus first. That's where this exoskeleton comes into place small motors and batteries providing a boost of power to the lower body when lifting and pushing the text that you're trying to lift up and it's going to push on the thighs. He's motors are going to spin, it's going to push on the thighs and deliver that 30, 40% more than you're capable of doing. Of course, I had to try it for myself first.51:54Lifting an awkward sized bin filled with 45 pounds, the system immediately firing as soon as I began my lip. So we up the ante, adding another 55 pounds, once again picking it up over and over with surprising ease. Even more noticeable with the lack of fatigue in my lower back. Afterwards, the team, along with funding from the state, is now looking to partner with local businesses, providing them a newly built, more cost effective version of the suit for free to test on their workers over a two week period.52:26Same 20 people doing the same task with the exoskeleton and then without the exoskeleton. And we'll look at the difference. They're confident employers and workers will rave over those differences once we certainly noticed ourselves, Cameron Polom, ABC 15 Arizona so I guess things that I'm, you know, were positive about. We've been thinking about how to build, you know, exoskeletons that are really lightweight that have, you know, typically have motors and springs.52:57We also think about how to apply that talk or apply that force at the right time. We also think about it's got to be super lightweight and you know, and easy to put on and use. And so, you know, these are the things we've been working on for the last 20 years or so. And we're, you know, proud of where we got we're we're really proud of the WearRAcon we're showing off other people's research and devices as well. And I think the industry is moving with, you know, passive systems, powered systems.53:33It, you know, was medical. Then we looked into military and industrial. And now this is for another video. But, you know, consumer exos are starting to take off as well. I think that is a great like conclusion statement there. And I think there's a saying, so why we're doing these episodes stays the same, that people will not be interested in knowing what we have to say until they know who you are.54:05So it makes me reflect on how lucky I am to have you as a co-host to this podcast. And I've gotten to learn over the last two recordings, really just how much work you have done over the years. Because when you say, oh, like, yeah, I've been working on this for 22 years, what does that mean? Now we know what that means. Your upper body, lower body systems, your approach to compliance and back drivability so the user doesn't feel locked into place.54:40Your approach to how how to look at the coordinate system and how to look at reference points and the work continues. I'm looking forward to you doing at least another decade. Yeah, the work does continue. We we looked at things like I was working Mayo Clinic on an elbow exoskeleton. So after brachial plexus surgery you need to rehabilitate that arm. They take a nerve and a muscle from the lower leg and then and attach it into the elbow.55:15And so then you need to do rehabilitation assistance. So we've been working in that area. We're working in the I think, you know, there was some other last ones we worked on a, a rise exoskeleton. Just something to help you, you know, get up off the floor. And then lately to these will be other future episodes. We've been I've been doing a lot of thinking about upright mobility as well, just helping people walk and balancing right. Balancing balance with anti fatigue with energy insertion and evaluation.55:53You've been busy that I know of it right now we we're just looking at the past projects. Yes. Did I miss any projects Bobby I don't know. You have your list. I know there's lists. Here let me let me tell you one. The hip side. I think we have it JTAR, the HeSA, the Phoenix or Phoenix. We haven't. We covered the apex. Yeah. Phoenix. The Phoenix device was a commercial version of the of the commercializing the version of the of an APEx with a Phoenix robotics group.56:31I think Dr. Kevin Hollander was. Commercializing some of the work that had been done. And then we did the RISE. We did the ROLLE we did the AirLegs. We did SPARKy the cast. We have that. Yeah, we did talk about the Crutches Cast was my very first work with with Doctor Kevin Hollander, where we had a motorized spring in front of the leg and we had a flap underneath your foot that would go back and forth, back and forth and allow you to walk around on the ankle side.57:05What is the what was the buffalo again, maybe that was powered ankle foot orthosis. So that was those orthoses that I have been making. And then the only thing that I'm seeing was the exo for the glove box. I think recently there were some images. Yeah. Why don't we just do a quick thank you for talking about that. Why don't we do some quick images? Basically, we've been thinking about working on exoskeletons for a glove box when your arms are out.57:39And Bobby knows more about this probably than I do. But let me share my screen. And so my undergraduate students. Built a device that was was like we we kept on saying, oh, I want a, a device for the shoulder and the elbow, and it's got to go inside these gloves. And they decided, no, we're going to have a motorized. And I can maybe zoom in a little bit.58:12We're going to have a. Now imagine you could do something smaller or simpler, but we're going to have a linear actuator that that just snaps into your hip, a hip structure and then supports your arm below the elbow. And in that way. I'll show a picture. In that way, you can still get your arms inside of these specialized gloves.58:44And because imagine you're working in a really dangerous environment But this was still good enough because there was a big opening here. The actual skeleton can still fit there. So this was a nice little project actually, that the students made because I could wear the exoskeleton and it would support my arms and I could make my arms go down and up, but I could still get my, my elbows and my wrists and my hands inside these really specialized gloves.59:19And is it safe to assume that this is still a linear actuator with a spring in series? Well, so this one wasn't this was a you know, we could have done that in the and that would be a nice future project. But this was a capstone project for students. And working with Los Alamos National Labs who sponsored the project. And then the idea was, could I have an exoskeleton and work inside a dangerous glove box?59:52So yes, I'd love to do some springs, love to do some more work on understanding human intention so that it would work even even better. Wow. Okay, like the design, because we we did it two years in a row and the first design was could you have some type of Bowden cable system for the shoulders and the elbows, and everything had to go inside the gloves. And this second year's design I thought was quite nice, where it definitely assisted the arms.1:00:27So this is hot off the press. This is I think some of these pictures are just one a few weeks ago. This is your May 2026. There's a nice little LinkedIn article that we made. So yes. Well thanks for running us through this. So now when people see the podcast, I hope that they have a better understanding of both. Who you are, your point of view and all this. All my work is in the public domain, so I encourage everyone to visit Exoskeleton Report, see my point of view.1:01:03And I feel like Tom and I make a good team where it's we enjoy working together. And, you know, people don't realize, you know, you worked in manufactured and you're also a bioengineer and you and you've built up, you know, the one of the largest. Well, the largest. site on exoskeletons and wearable robots. And, and we've been working together quite a bit the last, I guess I'm going to say the last two years.1:01:33I think we've been working real a lot together the last two years. Putting on. Please check out our podcasts. Please check out the newsletters. Please check out, you know, Bobby's, website. Yeah, and the WearableRobotics.com website too the next frontier is okay, the work is getting done. But how do you communicate what has been done without without sounding self-promotional or posing. But you need to find the balance the days, if you will build it and they will come long gone.1:02:10We live in a noisy universe where everyone is communicating and sending information or generating information. So we, we, all of us have to become better at communicating. This is what we try to do. This is our point of view. This is what we did. And and it's difficult. It's really difficult to find that balance between, let me say everything correctly. Let me not sound boastful, but also be able to say, hey, we've done this, this, this, this and that, and this is where it's located.1:02:49Right? And I think also, you know, people are looking for from you, people are looking for, you know, what's working, what's not, they want, you know, honesty and integrity and you've worn, you know, hundreds of exoskeletons over the last, let's call it two, six, 2016 to 2026. Over the last ten years, you know, we've seen exoskeletons being hidden away in hotel rooms to exoskeletons.1:03:21Now, being sold on Amazon. Right. And and some exoskeletons on Amazon. We think, you know, work really well. We and we've demonstrated some of those and some exoskeletons on Amazon. They might not. Be as, you know, as good as, as you think they are. Right. You know, there's copycats and, and things like that. So. Well at least not as advertised but all. Sure I think I think we'll leave it here and then we'll see where the future takes us.1:03:53I think that both of us have ideas on what direction things will go and what direction we want to go into. But for now, I'm just happy to be able to put a time stamp and say, hey, this is where we come from. This is how we got here to where we are now. Sure. Well, thank you, Bobby, for researching. You know, the work that I've done over the last well, it's been 27 years at ASU, but the work, you know, I'd say at least the last 20 years on wearable robots.1:04:26I appreciate it, Bobby, I said it. Bobby sent me a report and I, I, I read it, it was a 15 page report and I read it and it was like. It was almost like something you would read when you retire. I told Bobby like, oh, my, look at all this, these things, you know, I've thought about or done or or things like that, I appreciate it. I hope the viewers get a better understanding of all the devices we've made, whether they were, you know, pneumatic, whether were the ankles, the hips, whether they were, spring based, non spring based, motorized, whether we did upper body, lower body.1:05:05It's been fun. It's been fun. What a journey. I've, I've had a lot of let me end on this. I've had a lot of great students that I've worked with are well set because at the end of the day, this is where robotics, this is all about the people. It's not about like when we're geeking out about the Newton's meters and the back drivability. And is this a Bowden cable like we please don't misunderstand that we have forgotten that this is all about the people and empowering people.1:05:39Yes, yes. Well, thanks, Tom, for your time. Thanks to all our listeners. Thanks to our Patreon supporters. We are eager to answer any questions that you might have, either in any of the comments fields or you can email us directly. All the email addresses are our websites like hello@exoskeletonreport.com, for example. Will go directly to us and we'll see you in the next episode. Thank you everyone. Thank you Bobby Byeee Bye
